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bill at cosi.com
Guest
|
 Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
 |
|
Miles Scruggs wrote: | Quote: | | Quote: | `
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement it this
isn't likely to change.
|
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA? |
|
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|
 |
abalashov at evaristes...
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
Bill Michaelson wrote:
| Quote: | Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: | `
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement it this
isn't likely to change.
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA?
|
Clever, agile, and very ingenious and all-around open-source affirmative
of you. But you might have missed the "big boys actually implement it"
part. 
--
Alex Balashov
Evariste Systems
Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Tel : (+1) (678) 954-0670
Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671
Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz |
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stotaro at totarotechn...
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Alex Balashov
<abalashov@evaristesys.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Bill Michaelson wrote:
| Quote: | Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: | `
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement it this
isn't likely to change.
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA?
|
Clever, agile, and very ingenious and all-around open-source affirmative
of you. But you might have missed the "big boys actually implement it"
part.
--
Alex Balashov
Evariste Systems
Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Tel : (+1) (678) 954-0670
Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671
Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599
|
Well a government mandate would make the "Big Boys actually implement it."
Let me spoof NSA with DHS ANI and visa versa using WiFi and a hacked
asterisk box.
E911 was mandated and is semi functional, the government just has to
step in. They only step in when there are votes on the line or money
(and occasionally public safety, usually for PR reasons)
Thanks,
Steve Totaro
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz |
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asterisk at wideideas.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
On May 11, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Bill Michaelson wrote:
| Quote: |
Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: |
`
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement it
this
isn't likely to change.
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA?
|
come on at least try to think it through. How are you going to pass
the signatures for calls not originating via IP? call setup times just
get slower, and packets get bigger.
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz |
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|
|
abalashov at evaristes...
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
Steve Totaro wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Alex Balashov
<abalashov@evaristesys.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Bill Michaelson wrote:
| Quote: | Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: | `
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement it this
isn't likely to change.
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA?
|
Clever, agile, and very ingenious and all-around open-source affirmative
of you. But you might have missed the "big boys actually implement it"
part.
--
Alex Balashov
Evariste Systems
Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Tel : (+1) (678) 954-0670
Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671
Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599
|
Well a government mandate would make the "Big Boys actually implement it."
Let me spoof NSA with DHS ANI and visa versa using WiFi and a hacked
asterisk box.
|
That is probably the ticket, indeed.
But my guess is that the most intensive pressure is going to come from
the lobbying efforts of ILECs, as the same catch up to the fact that an
increasing number of VoIP calls are being terminated into their networks
from "who knows" and presented as originating from anywhere, throwing a
wrench into their finely billing and OSS processes, honed over numerous
decades. VoIP termination threatens to render partially meaningless
their immensely complicated tariffs and service type distinctions...
intra-LATA local, intra-LATA rated ("LD"), real inter-LATA LD (IXC),
many stipulations of interconnection agreements, associated regulations...
--
Alex Balashov
Evariste Systems
Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Tel : (+1) (678) 954-0670
Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671
Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bill at cosi.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
Miles Scruggs wrote: | Quote: | | Quote: | On May 11, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Bill Michaelson wrote:
| Quote: |
Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: | `
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement it
this
isn't likely to change.
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA?
|
come on at least try to think it through. |
|
OK, then, never mind.
| Quote: | | Quote: | How are you going to pass
the signatures for calls not originating via IP? call setup times just
get slower, and packets get bigger.
|
|
Your alternative? |
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|
|
abalashov at evaristes...
Guest
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bill at cosi.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
Alex Balashov wrote: | Quote: | | Quote: | Bill Michaelson wrote:
Status quo until death of PSTN?
|
|
Shweeet... |
|
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|
|
asterisk-biz at ics-il...
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
Since when did the big boys not eventually get what they want from the
government?
----------
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Totaro" <stotaro@totarotechnologies.com>
To: "Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion"
<asterisk-biz@lists.digium.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] ANI
| Quote: | On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Alex Balashov
<abalashov@evaristesys.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Bill Michaelson wrote:
| Quote: | Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: | `
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement it this
isn't likely to change.
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA?
|
Clever, agile, and very ingenious and all-around open-source affirmative
of you. But you might have missed the "big boys actually implement it"
part.
--
Alex Balashov
Evariste Systems
Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Tel : (+1) (678) 954-0670
Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671
Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599
|
Well a government mandate would make the "Big Boys actually implement it."
Let me spoof NSA with DHS ANI and visa versa using WiFi and a hacked
asterisk box.
E911 was mandated and is semi functional, the government just has to
step in. They only step in when there are votes on the line or money
(and occasionally public safety, usually for PR reasons)
Thanks,
Steve Totaro
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
|
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asterisk at wideideas.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:00 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
On May 11, 2008, at 2:20 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
| Quote: | Since when did the big boys not eventually get what they want from the
government?
| Quote: | On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Alex Balashov
| Quote: | Bill Michaelson wrote:
| Quote: | Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: | `
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement
it this
isn't likely to change.
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA?
|
Clever, agile, and very ingenious and all-around open-source
affirmative
of you. But you might have missed the "big boys actually
implement it"
part.
|
Well a government mandate would make the "Big Boys actually
implement it."
Let me spoof NSA with DHS ANI and visa versa using WiFi and a hacked
asterisk box.
E911 was mandated and is semi functional, the government just has to
step in. They only step in when there are votes on the line or money
(and occasionally public safety, usually for PR reasons)
Thanks,
Steve Totaro
|
|
I don't get why you or anyone thinks we need a solution to this. Just
because something has capacity for exploitation doesn't mean we need
the government to step in and define an implementation that removes
the exploitation. Someone else on this list is convinced that there
are existing laws against it with penalties (I assume) for violation.
This is pretty standard for any offenses against others: theft assault
murder etc. Asking the government to solve this issue, and enforce a
solution would be like wanting them to enforce your ISP to check all
emails leaving their clients to ensure they are actually coming from
their subscribers. Looks great on paper, and sure it would cut down
on spam, but are you ready to bend over and take that up the.....
Dear god am I the only person on this list who thinks the government
(especially the US gov) is the last entity that we want solving issues
and enforcing implementations? I know they have great track record
and are really good at that sort of thing...... Leave them exactly
where they are good at. Defining when it is wrong, and giving those
that don't obey the smack down, but please don't go inviting them into
play big brother.
Miles
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jcapp at anteil.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
Miles Scruggs wrote: | Quote: | | Quote: | On May 11, 2008, at 2:20 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
| Quote: | Since when did the big boys not eventually get what they want from the
government?
| Quote: | On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Alex Balashov
| Quote: | Bill Michaelson wrote:
| Quote: | Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: | `
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement
it this
isn't likely to change.
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA?
|
Clever, agile, and very ingenious and all-around open-source
affirmative
of you. But you might have missed the "big boys actually
implement it"
part.
|
Well a government mandate would make the "Big Boys actually
implement it."
Let me spoof NSA with DHS ANI and visa versa using WiFi and a hacked
asterisk box.
E911 was mandated and is semi functional, the government just has to
step in. They only step in when there are votes on the line or money
(and occasionally public safety, usually for PR reasons)
Thanks,
Steve Totaro
|
|
I don't get why you or anyone thinks we need a solution to this. Just
because something has capacity for exploitation doesn't mean we need
the government to step in and define an implementation that removes
the exploitation. Someone else on this list is convinced that there
are existing laws against it with penalties (I assume) for violation.
This is pretty standard for any offenses against others: theft assault
murder etc. Asking the government to solve this issue, and enforce a
solution would be like wanting them to enforce your ISP to check all
emails leaving their clients to ensure they are actually coming from
their subscribers. Looks great on paper, and sure it would cut down
on spam, but are you ready to bend over and take that up the.....
Dear god am I the only person on this list who thinks the government
(especially the US gov) is the last entity that we want solving issues
and enforcing implementations? I know they have great track record
and are really good at that sort of thing...... Leave them exactly
where they are good at. Defining when it is wrong, and giving those
that don't obey the smack down, but please don't go inviting them into
play big brother.
Miles
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
|
|
Miles,
You are not alone.
Jim |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stotaro at totarotechn...
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
On 5/11/08, Miles Scruggs <asterisk@wideideas.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On May 11, 2008, at 2:20 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
| Quote: | Since when did the big boys not eventually get what they want from the
government?
| Quote: | On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Alex Balashov
| Quote: | Bill Michaelson wrote:
| Quote: | Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: | `
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement
it this
isn't likely to change.
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA?
|
Clever, agile, and very ingenious and all-around open-source
affirmative
of you. But you might have missed the "big boys actually
implement it"
part.
|
Well a government mandate would make the "Big Boys actually
implement it."
Let me spoof NSA with DHS ANI and visa versa using WiFi and a hacked
asterisk box.
E911 was mandated and is semi functional, the government just has to
step in. They only step in when there are votes on the line or money
(and occasionally public safety, usually for PR reasons)
Thanks,
Steve Totaro
|
|
I don't get why you or anyone thinks we need a solution to this. Just
because something has capacity for exploitation doesn't mean we need
the government to step in and define an implementation that removes
the exploitation. Someone else on this list is convinced that there
are existing laws against it with penalties (I assume) for violation.
This is pretty standard for any offenses against others: theft assault
murder etc. Asking the government to solve this issue, and enforce a
solution would be like wanting them to enforce your ISP to check all
emails leaving their clients to ensure they are actually coming from
their subscribers. Looks great on paper, and sure it would cut down
on spam, but are you ready to bend over and take that up the.....
Dear god am I the only person on this list who thinks the government
(especially the US gov) is the last entity that we want solving issues
and enforcing implementations? I know they have great track record
and are really good at that sort of thing...... Leave them exactly
where they are good at. Defining when it is wrong, and giving those
that don't obey the smack down, but please don't go inviting them into
play big brother.
Miles
|
OK, what is your home number?
What happens when you are carted off to Guantanamo Bay by big brother,
while being denied due process?
Don't you know that the telcos have been in bed with big brother since
the at least the 50s and they invented the internet.
Have you heard of Echelon and Carnivore? Come on now. This has major
implications far more than stealing some credit card numbers, cash, or
bandwidth. It just hasn't happened yet.....
Thanks,
Steve Totaro
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abalashov at evaristes...
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 11:06 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
No, you are not alone. The government is generally ill-equipped to keep
pace with innovation in an intelligent way or be charged with any
implementation.
Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: | On May 11, 2008, at 2:20 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
| Quote: | Since when did the big boys not eventually get what they want from the
government?
| Quote: | On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Alex Balashov
| Quote: | Bill Michaelson wrote:
| Quote: | Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: | `
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement
it this
isn't likely to change.
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA?
|
Clever, agile, and very ingenious and all-around open-source
affirmative
of you. But you might have missed the "big boys actually
implement it"
part.
|
Well a government mandate would make the "Big Boys actually
implement it."
Let me spoof NSA with DHS ANI and visa versa using WiFi and a hacked
asterisk box.
E911 was mandated and is semi functional, the government just has to
step in. They only step in when there are votes on the line or money
(and occasionally public safety, usually for PR reasons)
Thanks,
Steve Totaro
|
|
I don't get why you or anyone thinks we need a solution to this. Just
because something has capacity for exploitation doesn't mean we need
the government to step in and define an implementation that removes
the exploitation. Someone else on this list is convinced that there
are existing laws against it with penalties (I assume) for violation.
This is pretty standard for any offenses against others: theft assault
murder etc. Asking the government to solve this issue, and enforce a
solution would be like wanting them to enforce your ISP to check all
emails leaving their clients to ensure they are actually coming from
their subscribers. Looks great on paper, and sure it would cut down
on spam, but are you ready to bend over and take that up the.....
Dear god am I the only person on this list who thinks the government
(especially the US gov) is the last entity that we want solving issues
and enforcing implementations? I know they have great track record
and are really good at that sort of thing...... Leave them exactly
where they are good at. Defining when it is wrong, and giving those
that don't obey the smack down, but please don't go inviting them into
play big brother.
Miles
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz
|
--
Alex Balashov
Evariste Systems
Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Tel : (+1) (678) 954-0670
Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671
Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nk3569 at yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
--- On Sun, 5/11/08, Jim Capp <jcapp@anteil.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Miles Scruggs wrote:
|
| Quote: | Miles,
You are not alone.
Jim
|
Third that. We don't need more regulation on VoIP - on the contrary.
-- Nitzan
_______________________________________________
--Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com--
asterisk-biz mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-biz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asterisk-biz at ics-il...
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 7:51 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] ANI |
|
|
You must have meant to reply to someone else because I've been mostly
non-active in this discussion. When I have been active, I've been mostly
neutral.
----------
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miles Scruggs" <asterisk@wideideas.com>
To: "Commercial and Business-Oriented Asterisk Discussion"
<asterisk-biz@lists.digium.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: [asterisk-biz] ANI
| Quote: |
On May 11, 2008, at 2:20 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
| Quote: | Since when did the big boys not eventually get what they want from the
government?
| Quote: | On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Alex Balashov
| Quote: | Bill Michaelson wrote:
| Quote: | Miles Scruggs wrote:
| Quote: | `
Welcome to IP baby, you really can't lock it down using the
traditional methods. As much as you would like to think that the
entity converting the IP to PSTN should/would/could/does correctly
specify the absolute correct ANI/CID it is quite the opposite on a
large scale. Unless someone dreams up a new way to enforce or
efficiently verify CID/ANI and the big boys actually implement
it this
isn't likely to change.
|
Digital signatures? a la RSA?
|
Clever, agile, and very ingenious and all-around open-source
affirmative
of you. But you might have missed the "big boys actually
implement it"
part.
|
Well a government mandate would make the "Big Boys actually
implement it."
Let me spoof NSA with DHS ANI and visa versa using WiFi and a hacked
asterisk box.
E911 was mandated and is semi functional, the government just has to
step in. They only step in when there are votes on the line or money
(and occasionally public safety, usually for PR reasons)
Thanks,
Steve Totaro
|
|
I don't get why you or anyone thinks we need a solution to this. Just
because something has capacity for exploitation doesn't mean we need
the government to step in and define an implementation that removes
the exploitation. Someone else on this list is convinced that there
are existing laws against it with penalties (I assume) for violation.
This is pretty standard for any offenses against others: theft assault
murder etc. Asking the government to solve this issue, and enforce a
solution would be like wanting them to enforce your ISP to check all
emails leaving their clients to ensure they are actually coming from
their subscribers. Looks great on paper, and sure it would cut down
on spam, but are you ready to bend over and take that up the.....
Dear god am I the only person on this list who thinks the government
(especially the US gov) is the last entity that we want solving issues
and enforcing implementations? I know they have great track record
and are really good at that sort of thing...... Leave them exactly
where they are good at. Defining when it is wrong, and giving those
that don't obey the smack down, but please don't go inviting them into
play big brother.
Miles
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